Episode 33: Changing the Climate for Women:
Abena Sackey Ojetayo
Kaia Findlay 0:00
Welcome to the campus energy and sustainability podcast. In each episode, we talk with leading campus professionals, thought leaders, engineers and innovators addressing the unique challenges and opportunities facing higher ed and corporate campuses. Our discussions will range from energy conservation and efficiency to planning and finance, from building science to social science, energy systems to food systems. We hope you're ready to learn, share, and ultimately accelerate your institution towards solutions.
Abena Ojetayo 0:31
Usually, our experiences are rich and they're purposeful. And when you go back and look back and reach for some of the best parts of it, and even some of the challenging parts of it, it is instructive on how you can move forward.
Kaia Findlay 0:45
I'm Kaia Findlay, the production assistant for the campus energy and sustainability podcast.
Dave Karlsgodt 0:50
And I'm Dave Karlsgodt. I'm a director of energy advisory services at Brailsford and Dunlavey and your regular podcast host.
Kaia Findlay 0:58
This episode is the fourth and final episode in our series, changing the climate for women. It is also my last episode as the production assistant for the podcast.
Dave Karlsgodt 1:07
So Kaia, I have to say this one's a little bittersweet for me I'm, I'm proud of this interview that we're about to hear and all the great work that you and Sarah Bar, our other 2019 podcast intern, pulled together for this series, but this episode marks the end of an era. So this is your last episode with us. So before we talk about this episode, why don't you tell us a little bit about where you're going?
Kaia Findlay 1:30
Yeah, well, this spring, I started working for North Carolina public radio, the station's called WMC and I'm a producer for their daily life talk show called the state of things. So we're mostly covering topics related to the pandemic right now. But we bring on artists, activists, politicians, healthcare workers, so it's been really fun to learn and to try something new.
Dave Karlsgodt 1:54
I guess part of the bittersweet part is I am really proud of you and where you've ended up and I guess any internship should end up in you taking a career type job, but I'm sorry to see you go.
Kaia Findlay 2:04
Yeah, I'm really grateful for this opportunity. It's been so good to work with you and to work with energy and sustainability podcast. I've enjoyed all the guests I've gotten to talk with and enjoyed working with Sarah when she was here. So I'm really thankful that I got to do this internship, I got to progress beyond internshiping, and learn a lot from you in this process. Thank you so much for all the opportunity that you gave me with this.
Dave Karlsgodt 2:28
Well, it's been a pleasure. Why don't you tell us a little bit about this final episode?
Kaia Findlay 2:32
In this episode, I talk with Abena Sackey Ojetayo. She is the chief resilience officer and director for the city of Tallahassee, Florida. We talked about her childhood in Ghana and her sustainability projects in Florida. And we also discussed code switching and the waste that age, race and gender can place pressure on people in the workforce. And it was a joy to talk with and I hope everyone enjoys this final conversation in our changing the climate for women series. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Abena Ojetayo 3:01
It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Kaia Findlay 3:03
Of course. And to start off, I'm wondering if you can introduce yourself and tell our listeners what you are currently working on.
Abena Ojetayo 3:11
Hi, everybody. My name is Abena Ojetayo. I am currently a neighbor in Tallahassee, Florida. And I work for the city of Tallahassee government as the director for sustainability and Community Preservation. We get to bring together some pretty cool departments that don't traditionally work together. Sustainability, resilience, code enforcement, housing and human services. And we're trying to push the envelope a bit on some of the work we do for our citizens.
Kaia Findlay 3:46
And you've been involved in the field of engineering and sustainability for a while. So I'm wondering how you got involved in that.
Abena Ojetayo 3:53
Yeah, I have probably always felt and believed personally, the principles of Sustainability, which is how we balance protecting our natural environment, while doing the most good for people and also ensuring economic prosperity. So I got involved in that formally in undergrad when I was studying Civil and Environmental Engineering. But I would say probably informally, being aware of my surroundings growing up, both in Ghana and in the US, and being encouraged to go into engineering and with math and science, but wanting more than just sort of the formulas or the the calculations but really excited about how I can translate the knowledge and engineering into tangible things in our community. So my family encouraged me to go towards that and when I came into undergraduate and found out that it was possible, first through engineering and later through more focused work in sustainability it seemed like a perfect match.
Kaia Findlay 5:02
Mm hmm. And can you talk a little bit more about how growing up in Ghana sort of made you realize that you wanted to go into engineering and work with sustainability.
Abena Ojetayo 5:12
I was born in Ghana, and spent the first 10 years of my life there. And so I remember just the childhood memories type things, you know, playing with friends and doing whatever my mom asked me to do, from one side to the other across the neighborhoods and hanging out with kids. And I remember the environment very vividly. I remember playing around the house. And I also remember some of the challenges that we face, some of the things I saw in lack of environmental protection, lack of care and stewardship for the land, and not everywhere, but it was Stark enough that I recall it. And I remember thinking about how it is that way and why things were designed the way that it were. Why buildings look like that why certain things were in our neighborhoods and wanting to be part of changing that. And I remember my dad also he constantly is asking challenging questions of us challenging us to rethink how something is or to come up with a better solution. And so I enjoyed a lot of those conversations. And when my family immigrated to the US, that part of my childhood stuck with me Of course, being in a family, a Ghanian family, even in the US some of the principles, some of the memories, the shared experiences, still kind of carried on. And so it became a little bit a little bit of an inspiration for me when I went into civil engineering to follow a career that would allow me to build communities differently to build them better and with a particular emphasis on environmental engineering. I was very interested in how we do that in a way that preserves the best parts about our natural environment.
Kaia Findlay 7:07
And so you pursued that in both undergrad and grad school at Cornell, and then you got the chance to go back to West Africa, right?
Abena Ojetayo 7:14
Yeah, I did right after grad school in an unbelievable opportunity. And it really sounded too good to be true at the time. But I was maybe young and naive and wanted to take the risk. Anyway, I joined a team, a small but nimble team in Ghana, that was working on a project actually based in Nigeria. So we went back and forth between the two countries, designing a new city for the Anam community in East Nigeria, where the community wanted to build a whole new city from scratch with lessons and best practices from around the world, but really authentic to their Ebo culture and history. And to do it sustainably and that was, again, unbelievable to have the opportunity to do that kind of master planning. If you could build a city and do it all the way that you want to do it, how would we do it? And we, we had a really awesome time. But it was also incredibly challenging. It was an opportunity to reconnect to what was my original inspiration for getting into this field. And to come back as an adult to sort of compare where what I remember with what the reality is now in these spaces, and to really challenge myself with what I said I would do, which is to be a part of the solution in the future of a more sustainable Africa.
Kaia Findlay 8:41
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's an amazing opportunity. How did those experiences help you when you came back to the US and you started working at Cornell before going to Florida?
Abena Ojetayo 8:49
It, to be honest, was harder transition than I thought, when I was working on the project in Ghana in Nigeria. It was mostly surreal. It was unlike anything that my peers were doing at the time. And then in a way was isolating, because, well, physically, we were also in a more rural place for the project location. But of course, through technology, I was still connected with many other colleagues and other professionals around the world. But coming back still, but coming back to the US still felt like I was entering another world. So it took a period of readjusting, but I think also just the difference in that kind of field work. And in practical engineering and coming back into the US, I was nervous that I won't be able to work on something as exciting and as thrilling. So I was very, very blessed when I got the opportunity to return to Cornell and work on their facility side so now not as a student but as a as a professional. And it was right when the University won a competition to build a brand new campus in New York City on Roseville Island. And it was pretty remarkable that I would have the opportunity to work on another sort of building something from the ground up with sustainability principles at the core. I would not have planned that I did not plan it. It just worked out that way through really God's favor. And it was an awesome translation of the work that I was doing in Nigeria, a couple synergies and a couple similarities that actually I've started to see afterwards is just going into a place that experiences really extreme shocks and in Nigeria was flooding and in some extreme heat, but balancing that with food security, economic prosperity, and just environmental stewardship was our challenge in Nigeria to do it in a way that was authentic to the to the local culture. And then come into the Cornell project. Here we had New York City post Superstorm Sandy. And a lot of things were changing about how New York City was approving building codes, changing energy standards and balancing all of that was sustainable design and the ambitions of the university to be a tech hub with a brand new canvas. It was really exciting. And I was surprised that that similarity was there translated very well.
Kaia Findlay 11:31
I like what you said about getting to return to a lot of these places like growing up in Ghana and getting to return into projects and then going to school at Cornell and and getting to return as a professional. That's a really cool experience.
Abena Ojetayo 11:42
I didn't think of it that way. But you're right. It's really awesome. And then, in Ghana, there's a word entry my language called sankofa and the symbol of it is like a bird with his head turned backwards, usually with an agonist mouth but the literal translation is go back and Fetch or return to where you started. And it is, it's kind of describes the spirit of what you just said that usually our experiences are rich, and they're purposeful. And when you go back and look back and reach for some of the best parts of it, and even some of the challenging parts of it is instructive on how you can move forward.
Kaia Findlay 12:21
Mm hmm. That's some good, some good wisdom. Well, in taking that idea of looking back and looking back on your schooling and your journey through your career, I'm wondering what your experience has been like for you as a woman in this field.
Abena Ojetayo 12:34
Oh, man, it's been a mixed bag, but mostly good. I'll start with my parents. I have always had such support from them. And I remember from a very young age, both my mom who is an accountant by training, and my dad who's a pharmacist, the math and science was just a very normal part of our growing up and a normal expectation for all of us to be good and and proficient in it. So my, my parents always encouraged it. And engineering was encouraged for me. I was relatively surprised when I went to undergrad that there wasn't as many, you know, women in there, let alone black women that are in that field. And I was prepared a little bit for it. And you know, folks were telling me, but it's still, you know, you deal with the shock when you're actually facing it. So I think undergrad, there was that awareness that, okay, this is not normal. For me, a person that looks like me to be pursuing this field and even little things like how our engineering school didn't have as many women's bathrooms. There was a building I was in where it would be every other floor, there'll be a woman's bathroom and they were renovating it and improving it and adding more but it was just sort of a relic of the past where Most of the engineering students were men. But I enjoyed so much support from Cornell's engineering program as well. They actually, right near when I was coming in, they established the diversity programs in engineering. And that was my second home. I mean, they they nurtured us, they guided us, they mentored us. And they provided a ton of resources to make first generation students, women of color, just Women Engineers, anybody who was not the traditional student in these fields to feel welcome and to have the resources to be successful. So I really appreciated that and that made a tremendous difference for me personally. Professionally, I've had some really incredible role models and when I sit back and I reflect on it, despite always being a minority in one way or the other in my chosen field, I've also enjoyed some really awesome mentors, both men and women. That normalized it for me or at least made me feel like it was absolutely possible. And you know, I had one of the best first time bosses you know, was a woman had a military background, gorgeous lady beautiful spirit always had it kept together, you know, just on the outside, but still such a hard working woman that just showed me what it was like to be a professional. And I've also had male bosses that have been awesome. When I returned back to Cornell, you know, my boss there showed me what real leadership looks like. And I still, you know, I would text him and say, hey, what would Steve do? Because this, this is a tough one for me. And I would just imagine, I think about how he led our team and how he was supportive of me when I was young when I was a black woman when I was, you know, relatively inexperienced in the field and he really placed me in roles that allowed me to be successful, to fail safely, and to be exposed to so many different areas that I think propelled me to the next level. So the all those things kind of encouraged me because there are moments for sure, where you are very aware of, you know, whether you're you're walking into room as a black woman, or as a black person, and then as a woman, and that intersectionality really makes it difficult to focus on just the task at hand. And there are folks that will have blatantly made statements in a way that reminds me that I don't belong. And so it's kind of that mixed bag, but I would say I've I've enjoyed a tremendous amount of support, and mentorship that really encourages me to keep going and I I still do.
Kaia Findlay 16:51
Mm hmm. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about the pressures and expectations that you're aware of when you walk into a room. Whether people give those to you intentionally or unintentionally.
Abena Ojetayo 17:01
When I usually walk into a room, and I do, I think I did this more in the past, but I may do it quicker and subconsciously now maybe still do it. I usually have a couple, I guess bags that I'm carrying both my awareness about my age, in a lot of circumstances, I may be the youngest person that is in the space. And I'm very aware of that, partly because growing up as a gun in age is a very important element of somebody's identity. elders are very much respected. And there is credibility that just comes with age. And so I'm aware of that when I walk into a space and I and I'm young. I'm also very aware of my race in America specifically, but increasingly really around the world. Every other place I've been you sort of are very aware coming in, but I think black folks have always had that challenge. So there is a learned skill of code switching as needed, you know, operating with whatever perspective, language tone body language that helps you to be successful in a specific environment. And of course, I'm also very aware of my gender. And when I walk into a room, especially in engineering or even in, you know, leadership roles, it is predominantly male. And so, depending on the environment, I kind of have to juggle all of that and some of them are more important than others. But I found it easier over time to really comfortably move through different spaces and to remain authentic throughout even as you keep some of these things sort of in your rearview mirror. I found that for me, when I first enter a space or a role, I'm looking for ways to connect to people on a personal level. I'm looking for how We are alike, and how we are more likely we are dissimilar. And then I've found great relationships centered around our shared work. That work that we do together, that collaboration and the success of that work has really been what speaks for itself and allows these other these other pressures to sort of melt away a little bit over time.
Kaia Findlay 19:27
And I'm wondering if as an example of being aware of gender and age, if you can tell that story about the Mr. Sackey joke in Nigeria?
Abena Ojetayo 19:38
Oh, gosh, yes. When I was working in Nigeria, we we had a couple of different hats to wear. I was part of the master planning and engineering design team, but I was also managing the construction on site, and when we would talk with prospective partners or you know, future employees or whatever we were talking about it, sometimes we would begin over the phone. And I like to say I just had a deep voice and that that could be the excuse. But after speaking with folks, we would have visitors to the site. And they would always ask, you know, where's where's the manager? Or would you know who's in charge here? And then they would ask Where's Mr. Sackey and it was really, it was kind of shocked me a little bit in the beginning, but it became really funny. And ultimately the the names kind of stuck. So I was called Mr. Sackey just to make it easier for everybody to deal with the fact that I was the woman in charge.
Kaia Findlay 20:38
Mm hmm. using humor.
Abena Ojetayo 20:39
Yeah, I helped it. I think folks, you know, once they recognize what was going on, we usually they were apologetic and, and, and that's, that's not nothing in the context that I was working in, which is a very patriarchal community. Again, the eldership is important but also male leadership was really important. And and that is, I don't think it's something to be dismissed. That is a structure that has been set up their their families that have been sustained through that and communities that have been led and sustained through that model. But it definitely comes with its issues. And so, you know, as an outsider working on a project for that community, you have to balance both of that sometimes with humor. While you can gently nudge folks to, you know, the new new way of things or just something that is not familiar for them. It's uncomfortable for everybody, but I think we work through that fine.
Kaia Findlay 21:39
Mm hmm. Yeah. And you talked also about code switching, and it seems like you do a lot of navigating spaces where you may feel uncomfortable that people might feel uncomfortable just trying to create space. Yeah. And I'm curious what has helped you do that code switching?
Abena Ojetayo 21:55
Yeah, I like to think that having another language or learning another language from a young age has been really important. And I think that when you're learning another language, and I mean, that it's different from learning one language as you're growing up your native tongue, but when you have to learn a second language, I think you really start to appreciate and to be able to do that switch that I had to do between learning English and tree and having to respond to people with with either one of them, I think helped me at an early age to do some of that code switching. And so you know, it's kind of like how, I don't know if you have this experience that no black person will tell you, there's a way their mom calls them that's like you're in trouble or, you know, there's, there's something more to the way it said and you know how to sit up straight, or you go into a particular environment, and it might be very professional, you're working with your colleagues in there. So there's a tone that's expected just in that profession. environment. But if you're, you know, reclined or chilling with some friends, there's a different sort of casual tone, and even words that are familiar with friends, right? So being able to switch, code switch is important for everybody, but I think black people, number one in America want to do really well. And then I think folks that speak another language, have have subconsciously learned that skill growing up. But I think there's a bit of also empathy that comes with it. It's like trying to understand what another person may be coming in to the space with and looking for that. And if I think if you start there with anybody, any space, there's a better chance that you could actually work together well.
Kaia Findlay 23:45
Yeah. And one other thing that I wanted to ask you about with the the expectations that when you walk into a workspace. You mentioned when we talked earlier, a double edged sword of having those expectations.
Abena Ojetayo 23:57
Yeah, I think for Women for black people in America for anybody that's kind of in a space that's that may not be normalized with their presence. You walk in, very aware of it, those elements of your identity that makes you different, right? On one hand, the good part of it is, I think you come sometimes over prepared, right? You You are thinking through all the different angles, you're you're thinking through how you present yourself physically, you're thinking about how to speak about your work, or who you are in a way that is clear that it is not misunderstood that it's not misinterpreted. And on the good side is you know that preparation is helpful. I think it makes women coming into our workspace they probably work twice as hard because they're trying to overcome some of these stereotypes. Same thing with black people in different spaces. And, you know, for me as an immigrant as well. Well to over time overcome some of those stereotypes. It's it can be a good thing, but on the other hand is extremely exhausting. It's mentally exhausting to deal with the burden of overcoming the expectations, whether it's fair or unfair, and you spend quite a lot of time thinking about and wondering, interpreting microaggressions, you know, trying to figure out this person mean what they said when they said this, and, you know, is it something that I did? Is it real? Maybe I should, you know, and it's just energy that's expended on stuff that others don't have to think about. And that's energy that is not spent creatively driving whatever solution that you actually should be focused on.
Kaia Findlay 25:47
And you mentioned you when you were talking about your mentors earlier, you said, somebody taught you what, how to be a good leader, and I'm wondering what leadership looks like to you in the workplace as you've navigated these spaces.
Abena Ojetayo 25:59
I think one of the best examples that I have personally is Jesus Christ. And my faith has been a very important part of who I am. And the work that I do, why I am even passionate about sustainability. It's this idea that we have to be good stewards of something that's been entrusted to us. The examples that I see from Jesus that he calls people directly and personally, and it kind of surprises you and in an overwhelming way, but it also drives you to be your best and I've seen some of those characteristics in other leaders that I've had the pleasure to work with that call you directly and say, Abena I want you to do this thing, right? And it just, you go from Oh, really me, you you have that faith or that trust in me and it just makes you work so much harder. I've also seen that servant leadership. One of my my favorite supervisors, he sat among us in the cubicles in this sort of, in a way that if you walked into the space, you wouldn't know he was the person in charge. And I thought that that humility encouraged the team to put their best foot forward because they felt like we were all doing it together.
Kaia Findlay 27:17
And I'm wondering how your experiences as a woman and as a black woman, have helped you become a leader and also made you very qualified for the job that you do.
Abena Ojetayo 27:27
I think black women just rock they are so hard working, they are incredibly resilient. They have this natural expectation to to handle businesses to just be a boss at home, right? But still, to lead and to to lead from behind in a way. Sometimes that's good, maybe not always good, but to just get the work done and not necessarily waiting for you know, acknowledgement and They've had to do that in very difficult times in our history. And they still do that now in their families. I think also just having some of these different, I guess, issues, challenges awarenesses identity challenges, makes you have that empathy, you know, to understand that folks come in with so many things, so many perspectives. And when you have to work to overcome some of that, and when you have to push to earn your space in the work area, I think it makes you better a better team player. It makes you a more understanding, and I think it helps you open the past for others coming after you.
Kaia Findlay 28:41
And I'm wondering what changes you hope to see in the sustainability and in the engineering field, to relieve the pressures and the burdens on women and on black women that you've talked about so far.
Abena Ojetayo 28:52
I think if you look at the core of what sustainability is That comes so naturally for women. I think there's a connection that women have with the social good or having a social impact with every work that we're doing. And so I think just making room for more women to participate from an early stage from, you know, kindergarten on and encouraging that in everywhere outside of just the classroom even, it's going to make the field better, and it's going to make it more welcoming. I think when it comes to sustainability, one of the missing pieces that is now getting more traction is environmental justice or environmental equity. And when you talk about sustainability and resilience, there's no way to avoid but I guess we've been doing that the conversation about equity and how the worst things that were the things we're trying to prevent are felt. Currently there felt today by the most vulnerable in our community, the poor or the marginalized, and these communities have been very aware of it for centuries. So making space for their voices to be heard, but also for them to be active agents of change, not just in consultation, but be leading these efforts around sustainability. I think you're gonna get a much better outcome. And of course, it's empowering and opens up the door for, you know, a lot more creative solutions.
Kaia Findlay 30:29
To finish up. Do you have any advice for young people, young women, young black women entering the field of engineering and sustainability?
Abena Ojetayo 30:38
Go for it, go for it. And don't be shy about even unlikely mentors. There's a little there's persistence that's required, but you know, don't assume if you walk into a space and you don't see another woman or you don't see another black woman, that's fine. It's you know, we're working on that, but go Join you know with the with the white man, the old white man in the corner he might end up being you know a champion for you or mentor in an unlikely way. So be persistent and but also find a balance outside of that work to that I think connects it when I was a student, one of the most important experiences I had was to study abroad. And even though I had the privilege of growing up in another country, still studying in the US and and taking the opportunity to go study in Greece opened my eyes, to even more ways to think about what I was studying and why it mattered. And I think once you see yourself as part of something way bigger, it drives you It motivates you and it keeps you going when the field gets tough when when folks challenge, you know, your your right to be there, you start to see that the work is not just you, but it's really waiting is for the world that's waiting for the solutions that you have for.
Kaia Findlay 31:59
Excellent. That's some wonderful advice. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.
Abena Ojetayo 32:05
It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for letting me share my story.
Kaia Findlay 32:09
That's it for this episode. Thank you to Abena for her time and participation in this show. Thank you to Kelsey Harding for her production assistance and her continuing work on the podcast. And a huge thank you to Dave Karlsgodt for his production assistance and support. I look forward to seeing what new episodes come from the podcast in the future. If you'd like to follow our show on social media, our Twitter handle is @energy podcast. You can also find us on LinkedIn, just search campus energy and sustainability podcast. If you'd like to support the show, please consider leaving a rating or review on iTunes. As always, thanks for listening.